Question for the DR.s

[Sparrisen]

So, I'm thinking, if you eat bad fat, it clogs up the veins. But, if you eat sugar, and the body transforms it into fat, does that fat still end up causing the same problems?

[Nightmare]

Dr Phil says: Yes.

[Myrmox]

Controversial issue but the consensus these days seems to be that a carbohydrate-rich diet (=lotsa sugar) is actually worse than a lipid-rich diet (=lotsa fat) when the primary endpoint to be analysed is coronary heart disease (="clogging up" arteries).

Remember that whereas we can convert sugars into fatty acids, our bodies can not make sugars out of fat. This means that if we eat lots of fat, we got lots of fat, but if we eat lots of sugar we get lots of sugar AND fat.

[Sparrisen]

Well, that seems somewhat counter-intuitive I had a great follow up question there, but darnit, I forgot.

EDIT: Eating that burger DOES feel so much more unhealty than sucking on the lollipop. Even if you down a lot of lollipops.

[Myrmox]

Thats because most people might think that the fat physically "clog up" the arteries by forming some kind of fat-plug, which is incorrect. Instead, fats are deposited in the vessel wall in the form of oxidized low density lipoprotein particles. The formation of these atherosclerotic plaques are accelerated by high levels of blood glucose, which is why consuming sugars leads to a higher incidence of coronary heart disease.

[Nightmare]

In english please...

[Sparrisen]

He's saying that sugar in the bloodstream stimulates fat-clogging of mentioned blood veins.

This rises several questionmarks^^ You don't have to answer if you don't wanna, it's just I get curious^^

So, SUGAR stimulates this. Fat get's turned into sugar by the body. And you say that fat doesn't just clog up the blood vessels in the way I first supposed.

So, fat in itself does not clog up the bloodvessles, or to a very small extent. How is it then that wholesome fat counter this? In my imagination I fanthomed that wholesome fat was easier to break down into it's smaller components, as in should it clog something up, it's easy to break apart. (the actual healthy aspect of this i still lost to me, but I supposed it just worked like soap, cleaning the vessles up by making the fats in there soluble)

[PimpMachine]

Gj, Myrmox! Sparris, when you get into med school you'll get to read about this plenty. But note - it is not the veins that get clogged up, it is the arteries. / PimpDoctor

[Myrmox]

OK, lets start from the beginning of a heart attack:

1. Oxidized fat (ox-LDL) is deposited in the walls of a coronary artery. This process involves local inflammation in the wall, and macrophages play a key part here.

2. The oxidized fats form a hard but brittle structure called a "plaque". It is like a slim shard of porcelein, which breaks easlily.

3. The plaque breaks and the resulting wound in the artery wall attracts platelets and starts a coagulation process to heal the wound.

4. The bloodclot (thrombus) does not attach properly to the plaque, and detach and is carried further downstream by the blood flow.

5. As the artery decrease in diameter the further downstream you get, sooner or later the thrombus get stuck and occludes the lumen of the artery. It is now called an "embolus".

6. The part of the heart that is supplied by the artery dies from lack of oxygen (ischemia). Heart attack!!!

Wholesome fats are less likely to form these plaques because they indirectly inhibit it through the local inflammation and coagulation processes. You see, the inflammatory system uses lipid hormones called leukotrienes and when "wholesome fats" are used to build these hormones, they are less active than if they would be formed by the "unhealthy fats".

They also affect step 3 above as platelet function is regulated by another (but related) group of of lipid hormone called prostaglandins. Again, the forms of prostaglandins that is formed using "wholesome fats" is less likely to lead to coagulation and thrombus formation on ruptured plaques those that formed using "unhealthy fats". I failed at putting this in simpler terms but I hope I have successfully communicated that the effect of "wholesome fats" is very indirect and complicated.

Like Pimpfather said, when you start medschool you will have many oppertunities to be frustrated (and marvel) at how complicated natures solutions usually are.

[PimpMachine]

@Nightmare: Since you didn't understand it in english, I'll translate it into finnish for you...

Tatsuu bekkassu maaste piipil majtu tinkka tatsu fattinen fysikum "proppi klosinen" arterianninen mitu tun suomi kajj fatti-plugginen, falsiformen. Innatsu, fattinen deposittu oy blotu veggu kerlinon te forminu oxxidaa loovista densistta lipoproteinen partty. Formenon alvar altoo skloroni plakki arro accelerin mitu maxxi niiva blotu sukkerinen, ne ty huomenta sukkerinen musto enn hajjinon sannoli kekko korronen rakasta dessiisinen.

/ Pimp

[Nightmare]

Sorry but pseudo-latin wasn't part of my curriculum back in school, so not that helpful...

[Hullu]

ne ty huomenta sukkerinen musto enn hajjinon sannoli kekko korronen rakasta dessiisinen.

THIS. Is something epic.

[ReverendLostLamb]

That reminds me of when the Estonians try to speak finnish.

[Sparrisen]

Awsome^^ I got it myr. From what I deducted, wholesome fats isn't actually a + in terms of health. It's just a lesser evil compared with unhealthy fats. Currently, I try to add alot of oil to my foods, the oil I use is 32 % multi-double-oxid-bindings and 68% single-double-oxid-binding, with exactly 0% of saturated fats.
An abundance of even this healthy fat still seems like a bad idea, with what you said in mind.

On the other hand, WTF? I managed to procure some Omega-whatever-fattyacid pills for free from a street salesman, as a food supplement. Which MEANS that I ADD more fat still, to an already existing good diet? Now it's very likely the street trader had his head up his arse, more than likely actually, but this is a product developed and meant to be used this way as well. Built only on a urban myth that some fats PREVENT heart attacks?

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Pimp, well that's interesting, I actually thought all the blood vessles were equally afftected^^ (Still veins is easier to spell )

Yea, I look forward to medschool, as these things really interests me, both the theory, and the practical applications^^ 

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EDIT: The only way I see that wholesome fats can have a healthy effect is if we actually chow down a lot of saturated fats anyhow, regardless of diet,  and the body favours unsaturated fats instead if avaliable, and sends the bad fats down the toilet. Then, up to a limit, eating wholesome fats would have a positive effect.

[ReverendLostLamb]

with exactly 0% of saturated fats.

Nothing is exact.